Look Ma, No Brakes!...the pucker factor

[Blue Goose]

I was almost home yesterday afternoon during 'pre-rush hour' when as I approached a signaled intersection the light started changing. As I started applying the brakes and began slowing, something let go and the pedal went to the floor. I was on a slight downhill grade. I was traveling maaaaaybe 30mph and had planned to make a left anyway. Luckily there was nobody ahead of me in that lane and cross traffic had not started to move as I went through the intersection on the red. The turn helped scrub off some of the speed. I then pulled the transmission selector into the L range and brought it to a crawl. Since I was then on a side street and not far from the house, that's the way I brought it on home.

At this time, I've not really looked any further about what let loose other than stick my head under it to see fluid dripping off of the frame in front of the right rear wheel. I'll check it out later today.

Over all of the years of my driving, I've driven vehicles with varying degrees of braking capability, some questionable. But until now never have I had the brake failure I experienced yesterday. The 'what ifs' are haunting.....

 

[LEB Ben]

That's pretty scary...and like you said, the what-if's make it scarier. What if that would have been rush hour, or there was a car that was in the turn lane, or cross traffic...what if what if what if. Glad it played out ok though.

 

[john112deere]

I've had that experience twice. Which, on balance, is more than enough.

First time was in my Ranger, coming up to a stop sign. Brand new Audi in front of me and a line of boulders along the shoulder. All I have to say is I'm grateful for dual-channel master cylinders.

Second was in a borrowed Dodge Cummins, in a parking lot. Pulled it out of Park, and when it "thunked" into Drive, my foot went to the floor and it started rolling forward. That turned into a logistical nightmare.


*I'll be curious to hear if it was a hard or soft line that let go...

 

[Beach66Bum]

Glad everything played out for the safety of you and the others on the road Brad, looks like something in the brake system blew a seal. ( wheel cylinder, maybe a brake line...)

 

[O'Rattlecan]

Woooo! Hang on for that one. My first car (Chevy Lumina that my Granddad gave me for a price I couldn't pass up) had that happen. That will scare the bejesus out of you.

Ryan

 

[m78]

That is a terrible pucker feeling !

 

[Blue Goose]

Ian, since I've never tried stopping a vehicle via the 'second channel' of the master cylinder, I don't know what it's supposed to feel like or how much braking to expect. When the failure occurred and the pedal went to what was the the second channel, it felt hard like the floor. I'm going to guess there was no power assist at that point. Because there was nobody in front of me, I really didn't give it much of a chance and concentrated on steering/riding it through the intersection.

It is a steel line that has rusted and failed. That's something else I've personally not seen. I've been told we're starting to see more of that kind of thing in this part of the country with the advent of the brine pre-treatment process of our roads prior to winter weather events.

 

[LEB Ben]

I've seen fuel and brake hard lines rust through like that, but like you said...mainly from salt riddled roads.

 

[john112deere]

Ian, since I've never tried stopping a vehicle via the 'second channel' of the master cylinder, I don't know what it's supposed to feel like or how much braking to expect.

It's not really a "second channel" to go to, as it's independent circuits for front and rear- lose a line (and all brakes) on one end, but you still get a little on the other. About one step better than dragging your heel out the door- but it sure saved my sheetmetal. (Actually, I'd say it's about as much braking as you get from the emergency brake- but easier, since your foot's already in place.)

You don't get much- with no resistance on one "circuit" of brakes, the pedal will go clear to the floor- and won't hold any resistance, so you've got to keep pumping to get slowed down much. ('Course, you've only got so many pumps before you piss all the fluid onto the road...and it ain't very many.)

It probably helps if you've had a little practice driving rotten old junk with brakes that require a few pumps to build pressure anyway...

It is a steel line that has rusted and failed. That's something else I've personally not seen.

Pretty common around here. I won't say it's quite a maintenance item, but in this climate it's more or less accepted that if you're driving a ten+ year old car, you might have to replace the brake lines.

 

[Fellro]

I had one let go on a panic stop, idiot in front of me hammered the brakes, which of course causes a chain effect... It started good, then the pedal dropped. At first I thought the ABS had kicked in, but didn't take long to realize I lost the main pressure. The second time on the same car I was simply backing up at my sister's, so no risk. Had a soft line blow coming up to a stop sign once in the past. Otherwise haven't had too many lines blow out.

Brad, you still had assist, but you had less resistance is why it seems so soft. Since only one part of the system was resisting, but you still had the same amount of assistance, it seems that you lost it, but it was still there. Since it was a front line that let go, and the fronts do about 75% of the braking, you don't have that much braking power from the rears. When the lines let go on the Neon, I actually would use the hand e-brake to make up for the lost pressure. Otherwise I would be needing a lot more braking area.Sad part on that car, the rear lines were what went out, but with the lack of system pressure effect, the stopping is not so good.

I agree that the pretreating is wreaking havoc on the vehicles. I have seen plenty of rusted lines over the years, but many times the rest of the car was tough too, but the Neon has next to no rust on the floor pans and such, yet the brake lines are rusted up badly. The coils they use to prevent chafing add to the trouble, and is typically where I find the rust through the most. I deal with much older than 10 year old cars much of the time as well.

 

[Blue Goose]

Per your comment, Roger: While being 15 1/2 years old, this Expedition isn't a rust bucket. It's actually pretty respectable looking, but that brake line sure looks crusty.

Per your comment, Ian: I'm not very good at proper terminology and when you used the word channel in your first post, I figured I'd follow the educated (and experienced) man and use that too... I knew it was dual something...

 

[john112deere]

I think channel is actually correct, but it might be circuit. Either way, I was just clarifying that they're in parallel, not in series. (i.e. You don't "go to" the second one so much as just lose one of 'em.)

 

[Fellro]

I have been seeing/dealing with rusted fuel and brake lines a lot these days. Used to be everything rusted, for some reason the brake and fuel lines go first now. The Neon has rusted the lines, but the sheet metal is fine, and it has 224,000 miles on it now. I do know they started to zinc coat the lower panels, so maybe that has a bit to do with it, but the paint is still on the bottom of the beater Neon... the lines are crusty. Even tranny cooler lines are rusting out these days. Rarely used to see that.

Oh, and proper terminology is circuit, fluids and electronics are in circuits.

 

[kiwi f150]

Is there nothing else that can be used instead of salt?

 

[Fellro]

Personally, I think they are getting carried away with putting the crap down. Get into areas that are too cold for salt to be used, and they just use sand, and let the sun do it for them. People can't handle driving in anything remotely slick any more... they get scared at an inch.

 

[kiwi f150]

I was wondering about that as they only use coarse sand/grit out here - in the really shady areas we get lots of black ice ..... same here with our drivers - they just can't seem to get their heads around the idea that you need to drive to suit the road conditions ....... panel beaters do exceptionally well here in the winter.

 

[SuperCab]

Only one I ever saw do that was a '72 Dodge. And it did exactly that... the line blew and POOF! you are held in by suction for the remainder of your ride. No brakes. and the parking brake had necer worked on it, so that made for even more fun.

The real killer was when dad was trying to back it down the hill to the shop, having the engine running and trans in drive for brakes. Worked good till te engine died... Spent the rest of the day pulling it out of the bushes next to the shop...

 

[boysmomoflabs]

Is there nothing else that can be used instead of salt?

Seattle has just now authorized the use of "salt" on our roads. We've fought it and fought it due to the impact it will have on the Puget Sound.

Some places are now using pickle brine vs chemical salt.

 

[Fellro]

My understanding on what they pretreat with here is actually a corn processing by product, but I can't validate it. I know it wreaks havoc on the trucks that apply it though.

 

[Blue Goose]

This winter they (on the news) talked about using beet juice, but I can't for sure tell you if that was in the pretreat process.